By Daisy Luther
Last week, Dave Hodges wrote an article called The Psychological Reasons Why American Soldiers Would Fire On American Citizens. Mr. Hodges used experiments by behavioral scientists to support his hypothesis. His evidence was the Asch experiment
, the Milgram experiment, and the Stanford prison experiment. All of the experiments proved one thing: under certain circumstances, people would perform acts of cruelty that were aberrant to their normal behavior.
Let me preface my argument by saying that Dave Hodges puts out some great information – none of this is a personal attack on him or his work. This is a rebuttal to a specific article he has written.
Are American soldiers the bad guys, the new tools of tyranny, ready to coldly spray a protesting crowd with bullets?
I don’t believe that they are the enemy. I don’t believe they are deserving of this disrespect.
I am the daughter of a veteran, a patriot who was honored with a military 21 gun salute at his funeral. I’m also the grandaughter of 2 veterans, the niece of 6 veterans, and the cousin of still more veterans. For 3 generations, members of my family have served. They’ve fought in both World Wars, Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf, and Afghanistan.
When someone makes the choice to join the military, they may not really know what they’re getting into. But when they make the decision to stay in the military once their initial time is up, they are well aware of what that decision means.
It means:
The possibility of leaving family and loved ones
The possibility of being stationed in some of the worst hellholes on the planet
The possibility of seeing horrible things that you can’t unsee
The possibility of coming home disabled
The possibility of never seeing home again, and returning in a pine box
People who choose a career in the military face risks the rest of us never even considered. And they do it so we don’t have to. They do it because they feel that we have a country worth fighting for, and because someone has to do it. They do it because they believe in America. No one could possibly consider this an easy lifestyle.
Having grown up in a family with such a strong sense of duty, when I read Mr. Hodge’s article, I felt sick at the thought that others look at my loved ones, with their patriotism, courage, and good intentions, and believe that these men are threats instead of guardians.
I feel it’s imperative that people differentiate between the members of the military and the military industrial complex.
In his farewell speech, President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us about the risk once money began to be made from the military. He said:
Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
…
The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocation, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
This hunger for money and power that Eisenhower warned about is the real threat to our well-being. I can very easily see how the military industrial complex (MIC) would be interested in crushing and subduing the public. In fact, they are so powerful that they are the kingmakers. Through their support, our members of Congress and everyone right up to the President find themselves hoisted upon golden shoulders into office. The price for these appointments (we can hardly even call them elections anymore) is to keep lining the coffers of the complex.
Now, compare this with the life of a person who dedicates himself to defending the country. People don’t get rich serving in Afghanistan. They might be sweating out 10 pounds of fluid a day in the desert over there, but it’s certainly not a luxurious spa. It’s a life of sacrifice and duty, and they see nothing of the billions that the folks in the MIC.
You can be vehemently anti-war and anti-interventionism (as I am) and still respect our soldiers and veterans. The two are not mutually exclusive. In any group, you have honorable people and dishonorable ones, but the military people I know are patriots, devoting their lives to the protection of our country. When they are used to do the bidding of the MIC, you can be assured that isn’t the reason they signed up.
***
Now that we’ve defined our cast of characters, let’s go back to Mr. Hodges’ article.
In the scenario he describes, Mr. Hodges believes that one day, chaos will erupt on the streets of America and our military will be called upon to restore order. No one can deny that there is always the possibility of civil unrest – we saw how thin the veneer of civilization was recently in Ferguson Missouri. He believes, though, that the military will be called upon to open fire on citizens randomly protesting in the streets. He wrote:
This scenario and the resulting public execution of American citizens for engaging in protesting has happened many times in our past. For those old enough to remember, the 1970 Kent State massacre should come to mind as the Ohio National Guard opened fire on protesting college students on the campus of Kent State University. But for those who believe that this was merely an anomaly, let’s examine what the field of psychology has discovered about the answer to this question.
Some our citizens are deluded into a false sense of security by the group known as Oath Keepers. It is a well-intentioned effort to remind both law enforcement and the military to uphold the Constitution and to disobey unlawful orders which would bring harm to American citizens. Under this false sense of security, many in the American public really believe that American troops will not fire upon American citizens. Unfortunately, the field of psychology demonstrates why only a minority of soldiers will actually resist committing atrocities against the American people.
The situation at Kent State was tragic, but what Mr. Hodges doesn’t point out is that the National Guardsmen who fired into the crowd were actually NOT following orders.
One former Guardsman who fired on the students, Larry Shafer, told the Kent-Ravenna Record-Courier on Tuesday that he never heard any command to fire and that “Point!” would not have been part of a proper command anyway. (source)
First, we must also keep in mind that there’s an enormous difference between a protest and a riot. These are two different scenarios, which would result in two different responses. For our purposes, we’re going to go with Mr. Hodges’ example that this is a protest. You know, signs, chanting, maybe some yelling.
It’s highly unlikely that in the type of situation Mr. Hodges describes, a commanding officer is going to give an order to mow down a bunch of civilians, regardless of how angry they are.
But even if such an order was given, Mr. Hodges discounts the repeated training that all soldiers receive that instills in them that it is their sworn duty to DISOBEY unlawful orders. He disregards the ethics that are reinforced
throughout their training. Any person in the military will agree that they are reminded repeatedly throughout their careers of this duty.
Military discipline and effectiveness is built on the foundation of obedience to orders. Recruits are taught to obey, immediately and without question, orders from their superiors, right from day-one of boot camp.
Military members who fail to obey the lawful orders of their superiors risk serious consequences. Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) makes it a crime for a military member to WILLFULLY disobey a superior commissioned officer. Article 91 makes it a crime to WILLFULLY disobey a superior Noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92 makes it a crime to disobey any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be “willful” under this article).
In fact, under Article 90, during times of war, a military member who willfully disobeys a superior commissioned officer can be sentenced to death.
Seems like pretty good motivation to obey any order you’re given, right? Nope. These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders — if the order was illegal.
“I was only following orders,” has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn’t work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since. (source)
But the training goes even further than that. Insubordination is that fine gray area between using your own judgement and following lawful orders.
A service member may not disobey a lawful order given by a superior officer. This includes specific orders given to a service member by his direct superior officer (under Article 90 of the UCMJ) as well as general orders or regulations that govern the service member’s unit (Article 92 of the UCMJ).
An instruction from a superior officer is considered an “order” which must be obeyed when:
- It contains a command to take or refrain from taking a specific action (general recommendations to “perform your duty” are not orders);
- It was directed at an individual;
- It pertains to that person’s military duty;
- That person had knowledge of the order; and
- The order was lawful.
Of all of these requirements, “lawfulness” is the most difficult, and the most important, to figure out. An order is “lawful” when it does not conflict with the U.S. Constitution or its laws, other military or admiralty laws, or international treaties. Also, a lawful order is one which doesn’t interfere with an individual’s constitutional rights. All orders are presumed to be lawful (except patently unlawful orders, such as deliberately killing innocent civilians), and any service member that refuses to obey an order may be properly court-martialed.
However, if an order is unlawful, the service member that receives the order has a duty to disobey it. A commander who issues an unlawful order is essentially ordering his subordinate to commit a crime, and the subordinate that obeys the unlawful order is just as guilty of the crime as the commander. That is the reason that the defense that soldiers “were just following orders” when they committed war crimes almost always fails. (source)
Just to confirm that the rules mentioned above were legitimately impressed upon soldiers, I contacted a Chief Warrant Officer in the Army and combat veteran, Graywolf from Graywolf Survival, to ask about the training they receive on this topic.
“I joined the military back in the Cold War and spent many years as an enlisted Soldier before becoming a commissioned Warrant Officer. I’ve been deployed to several combat zones under many different Rules of Engagement, so I have some idea about the training and mindset of the military when it comes to dealing with civilians.
The idea of following lawful orders and requiring the disobedience of unlawful orders is not only instilled in every Soldier through countless official and unofficial training opportunities, it is pounded into their heads over and over again. It’s a discussion that happens regularly among both officers and enlisted personnel before, during, and after combat. It is a part of required training at every leadership school and at every unit. This is a part of the everyday thinking and training of every Soldier – more so by far than at any time in history.
The ONLY way a Soldier would fire on ANY civilian would be if their life were threatened or if they were saving the life of someone else, and they would gladly put their own lives in danger to do so. In countless situations, Soldiers and commanding officers put their own in danger overseas by not firing back when cowardly enemy combatants used civilians as human shields while they attacked.
Why on Earth would they do any less for their own citizens?”
***
Now, on to the experiments. Those horrifying (and many say unethical) experiments saw average everyday people doing horrible things to their fellow man. The subjects blithely followed orders and suddenly became as sadistic as the guards at the most evil of concentration camps.
Or did they?
Some studies say that the results of the experiments were skewed. For example, the Milgram experiment 
had a subject obediently kept increasing what they believed to be the voltage of electric shock to a person screaming in pain. An astonishing 65% of the subjects continued to up the voltage, just because they were told to. However, half of the subjects refused to even participate once they found out the parameters of the experiment. So in reality, the 65% number that the experiment touts is very inaccurate.
Philip Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison experiment
had students role-playing parts of both prisoners and guards. The question was, how did those two roles affect a person? According to documents and videos, the guards became increasingly brutal and dehumanized the prisoners. While it’s irrefutable that bad things happened during that experiment, later evaluation of the studies by Professors Alex Haslam and Stephen Reicher suggest that this was not, as Zimbardo concluded, blind compliance.
The study generated three findings. First, participants did not conform automatically to their assigned role; second, they only acted in terms of group membership to the extent that they identified with the group; and finally, group identity did not mean that people simply accepted their assigned position—it also empowered them to resist it.
Although Zimbardo and Milgram’s findings remain highly influential, Professor Haslam argue that their conclusions do not hold up well under close empirical scrutiny. (source)
***
Mr. Hodges concludes:
This has dire consequences for the ability of uniformed personnel to resist orders from their commanding officers to fire upon American citizens. People will act according to the role that they have been assigned to play. Finally, based upon the Zimbardo Prison Experiment, what kind of treatment could you expect at a FEMA camp?
Will American soldiers fire upon Americans in times of civil unrest? The evidence has been presented to you, what do you now believe?
I’m glad you asked.
I believe that the question is too broad and open to interpretation and the whims of myriad situations. If you narrow it to Mr. Hodges’ original scenario, then NO – I don’t believe that soldiers will open fire on protesting citizens, as he implies.
I believe that this random assortment of studies says that people – any people – can be capable of bad acts. That goes for you, me, the couple next door, and the preacher that lives on the other side of them. This is not “evidence” of anything more specific to the military than it is to anyone else. Members of the military are no more likely to participate in something horrible than any of us. In fact, due to their training and mentality, they are probably less likely.
I believe that if we measure patriotism by our actions and not by our words, the men and women who serve in the military have proven that they are red, white, and blue to the core. They have walked the walk – and done so all over the globe, in whatever conditions they are required to.
I believe this essay is insulting conjecture. It demonizes the wrong people and creates a culture of mistrust. It reminds me of the veterans who returned from Vietnam, and instead of a welcome, were greeted with disrespect and derision. It belittles the sacrifices made by combat veterans, POWs, those who died serving, and those who missed Christmas with their children.
To all of the veterans I know, and also the ones I haven’t met, thank you for your service.
I really enjoyed Hodge’s piece, gloomy as it was. I don’t think I’d call it “insulting conjecture” at all, since it was based almost exclusively on a pair of well-regarded experiments. At the same time, it’s good to hear an opinion that goes the other way. Like most things, the reality probably falls somewhere in the middle. Will soldiers fire at their own people when called for? Some will, some won’t. We’ve got to hope that the latter group is the more dominant.
Hi Daisy, I quit reading ANYTHING that Dave writes because he reminds me too much of that character in Little Abner that always had the freaking storm cloud over his head everywhere he went and was always full of nothing but doom and gloom. I would hate to be Dave’s digestive system. It must be in a constant state. Dude no doubts needs loads of Tums or something. Haha. Anyway, there is enough negativity out there without the likes of his BS. Don’t need anymore. Thanks for countering it.
I should really read stuff before I post it. I meant “no doubt” not doubts. DUH. Oh well.
Oh, btw, Daisy, the flag above has gold trim. Are you aware of what that means? It has to do with being aligned to England. Research it. It’s too involved to post here. Our courts etc are not loyal to the US at all! Every time I see a flag with gold trim it makes me mad.
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm
You are opening more than I think the author is willing to contemplate.
Good piece Daisy,
I honestly feel that most of our brothers and sisters who serve will stand down if given orders contrary to the constitution here at home, they are not like the police brutalizing civilians, or the other government alphabet soup assholes abusing us, i believe MOST will stand against the tyrants and will embrace the patriots. These men and women are our neighbors, our Brothers, our Cousins, our Teachers, our Firemen, they come from all walks of life and all colors and creeds. The arrogance of TPTB is the biggest issue and from what I have personally seen, these men and women who serve are just as sick of the crap as you or i.
This is why all the illegal imigrants, the foreign soldiers training on US soil, the ties to hired mercs like Blackwater, their numbers will dwindle quickly,
But the blood of tyrants and patriots will feed the tree, unfortunate but true.
Anyway, thank you Daisy for another good article and for posing a more positive viewpoint.
Let’s get some clarification. Look at the recent events in Ferguson. Look at what cops have been doing around the country. They are responding with the training they have been given. U.S. military troops are not much different.
First, they’ll be desensitized with firing on citizens by using “less than lethal” munitions. The ‘gov’ will place their provocateurs among the crowd and fire live ammunition and throw bombs at the police or military. The police and military will respond in kind. As casualties mount on both sides, so will climb in ranks the number of troops and militia.
Once some kind of calm is sought, foreign troops will be called in. More false flags applied (they’re preparing for IEDs). The goal is utter chaos. At which point, you’ll witness the police and military splitting or siding with the people. After all, the domestic military and police are of us.
You have to understand the big picture. The ‘powers that be’ want America flushed down the toilet. America’s troops will be mired in foreign conflict. Domestic forces will be caught in between foreign troops and militia. All will be shooting at each other. America will be erased while a new order is erected.
That’s the plan.
So you are a police officer? Military?
Sounds like neither. Conjecture and speculation. Additionally I would never lump the proficiency of the military into the same category as the wannabe robocops waddling around in the body armor they got for free from uncle sam.
Thank you, you beat me to it.
No doubt the military is treated horribly, more horribly than most by this international banker run govt and its predecessor puppets, but at some point everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions.
Wonder what the native Americans would say to your comments? How many women and children slaughtered? 1.6M Iraqis dead, majority civilians? What is the American soldier exactly except a better trained version of cops. How many Americans killed by drone with no due process by the benevolent military? How many shot at Kent State?
Who fought the civil war and burned American cities killing numerous civilians? Why would secret service step away from Kennedy’s vehicle just before him getting shot? Just following orders sir.
The same people bombing Vietnam into the stone age were many of the same that rounded up Japanese-Americans in WWII. These were American soldiers “just doing their job” or ending up in jail. Hmmmm. There are certain realities seems many are quite unwilling to face. History has many inconvenient truths that most Americans are simply incapable handling.
Isnt it fascinating how many military end up sick from vaccination loads no human should have to endure along with exposure to depleted uranium weapons, white phosphorous, and chemicals of all flavors, yet they think these are accidents? How many cannot even product testosterone after multiple anthrax vaccines? Those same persons are unwilling to see how easily they are manipulated….iraq 1, 2, 3, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, Bosnia, Vietnam, Korea, Somalia, Ukraine….all for oligarch profit. Sorry if I simply have little more than disappointment for your comments.
REMEMBER KENT STATE.
At Kent State it was un trained for riots National Guards Men. It quickly turned from a peaceful sitdown protest to a riot where there were reports of shots being fired from the mob. This and, if you want, Ferguson are great examples of how only a few “community” organizers and agitators can take over a situation and expand it into a controlled/un-controlled riot.
In 1968 during the Washington DC riots the 82nd. Airborne Division was deployed to DC. What was learned was there would be one or two people at a safe distance from the front or point of the riot controlling the mood and direction of the crowed. They would use rolled up cardboard as a megaphone or a power battery megaphone also there would be Lieutenants meeting with them and then going out into the crowd to either change directions of flow or to start to break store front windows or roll cars onto their sides and set fire to them. If these people were to be targeted and eliminated two things would happen the power of the crowd would be curtailed and soon turn into a disorganized mob and there would be a huge hue and cry from the liberal community that “harmless” unarmed people were either killed or injured. I know first hand that there are camps across the United States to train people on how to disrupt city and government community and public comment meetings by having your “People” flood and plug the meeting preventing others from testifying. In short stay out of a riot, if caught in one move 90 degrees to the flow of the direction of crowd. Stay away from anyone shouting commands from the center of the crowd. To break up a controlled riot capture or Neutralize the power of the controller.
I wish I could stop speaking the truth and just be a ‘tard, but I can’t. So here it is. A college is a place of learning, not a place for demonstrations. Next time the National Guard should have training with automatic weapons and the art of using them in an L shaped ambush. Then nothing but a red mist would be floating across the campus. That is how to handle a protest. I am so damned sick and tired of seeing that fat slob woman’s picture of her kneeling on the ground with her hands up in the air and her pathetic crying. I’ve been looking at it for over 40 fracking years. She wasn’t even a student at Kent State. She was obviously an agitator or she would not have been their. I protest everyday, on the computer, on the phone, calling my elected representatives, but never on someone else’s property. If they had shot the wall street protestors it wouldn’t have spread across the country. Death solves all.
One event 45 years ago is the exception which proved the rule. It is possible that American troops could fire on American citizens but I would rather take my chances with soldiers and/or Guardsmen than with police, federal LEOs, or a local militia trying restore order, prevent disorder.
I wonder if it would be UN troops firing on us and not our own military. Do UN troops train here? They would have less of a problem firing on US citizens, I would think.
Just read your history and you will see the military fired on us citizens in Washington dc the officers were American heroes Patten McCarther and Eisenhower this was the returning vets from ww1 protesting not getting there bonus. what they got was gunfire form US Millitary
May 4, 1970
Well as a vet I hope todays soldiers do not fire on Americans.
However, I remember Kent State, Pine Ridge, etc. which provide examples of US troops brutality towards fellow Americans.
I’ve talked with my nephew, a career soldier biding his time to retirement now, about this and he is of a mixxed mind. On the one hand he is quick to remind me to keep his guns in prime condition as he will desert before firing on americans and wants to return the favor. He is also quick to remind me that many soldiers are themselves sheep who will follow orders no matter what. Today’s soldier is trained to ignore the pleas of fellow citizens and surroundings. Why do you think the Military has gone crazy training for urban warfare. These mock towns are clearly designed to simulate American cities and towns clearly desenstising any impulse to PROTECT civilians.
My assenment of it is that while many will refuse to fire on Americans, many more will blindly follow orders. The reason being is that many “American” soldiers are not really Americans.
I could care less about the studies of educated men and their controls. Historically, mob behavior rules. When everyone around you is shooting, so will you.
The question is WHAT IS IN YOUR SIGHTS?
I hope it is a blue helmet! I,myself am looking forward to telling my great-grandchildren how that helmet came to be on my trophy wall and the socialist fool that wore it who fell at my shot.
People ALWAYS reference Kent State. “There’s your example of US Troops firing on Americans!!!”
Ok. How about this.
When Gun Controllers reference the multitude of RECENT active shooter events we always have a rebuttal. Those events never represent us, the law abiding citizens who own firearms and use them responsibly. We would never allow one, two, ten events like that to represent us.
So why then, is there a double standard and Kent state (one example, decades ago) is so often used as a blanket representation for what ALL military members could do?
Ridiculous.
PJ, it’s not the military that will be firing on US, it’s the civilian police force that is, to quote our so-called President, “civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”
Take a look around at the massive expansion of everything .gov in the private sector. Take a look at the billions of rounds of ammunition bought in the last few years by these “civilian” agencies. Take a look at the number of outrageous acts of violence from these agencies against civilians.
Seriously, just take a look around.
In Vicksburg ,MS the government is graduating Civilian National Security Force graduates. Their oath is NOT to support the constitution like regular military that swear an oath to protect and defend the constitution but rater to “do good” what ever that is..or what ever their masters say it is..just like the brown shirts in Germany. Obama and his kind are not relying on the police or the military that have taken an oath to support the constitution but rather a new well paid “blue shirt” that is just as well equipted to carry out the orders they are given without a second thought.
Billy, I could have went all day without hearing that. But reality is reality, isn’t it, and we must recognize it and prepare for it or it will automatically work against us. Keep us posted on this crap if you will please, cuz if it is happening in the heart of the south like Mississippi, then no telling where it will spread to. thanks
OUTSTANDING! Thanks for the rebuttal to that trash of an article written by someone who has no doubt never served or done anything remotely related to honorable.
bravo.
As previously mentioned it IS good to see another well thought out side to this argument. However, you must take into consideration that police and military personnel are being propagandized into believing that citizens believing in the constitution and preparedness are potential domestic terrorists. Couple this with training that implements aggressive, uncalled for behavior in a disproportionate response to domestic “threats”, and you find a powder keg situation. When authorities come in like jackbooted thugs it only takes one shot being fired by an idiot on either side to spark an all out armed conflict… And then the people who previously would not have ever dreamed of firing their weapons at fellow Americans are completely justified in doing so after this situation has developed. We came very close at Bundy Ranch, we won’t be so lucky one of these days. This is the danger of the military policing it’s population, and it the reason the constitution forbids it. It’s nice to see that they’ve gotten around that by militarizing the police.
You touched on my concern. The writers relatives and Greywolf were trained a certain way at a certain time in the past, but reports out now of current training methods are labeling some very average citizens as terrorists (religious people, people who believe in self-reliance and personal responsibility, people who believe in the constitution). I still don’t believe that our military will fire on a lawful protest (meaning not a destructive riot) in any kind of large numbers, and cooler heads will prevail. In other words, there may be an incident or two, but either orders will be quickly clarified to prevent those actions in the future, or there will be defections among the ranks. I have nothing to base this on except I feel in my heart our military is overwhelmingly made up of the best of this country and will act accordingly.
The problem with the propaganda is that 3/4 of the combat arms soldiers would be the ones being demonized. Convincing a supply clerk or a nurse that patriotic citizens are enemies of the State are not much of a concern. Virtually all the combat types would be on the side of protesters and opposed to the illegal attempts to suppress American citizens.
The question we’re trying to answer here is; will US soldiers/LEOs actually fire on their fellow US citizens.
The question SHOULD be; will US soldiers/LEOs actually fire on their fellow US citizens AGAIN.
Daisy, I’m so proud of your family’s sacrifice and service to what’s left of our country and there are many in the service that would not fire on US citizens. But you have to face reality, many absolutely will.
They HAVE.
The citizens they would be firing on have already been painted as terrorists by their Commander in Chief who has already gutted any upper level officers that might have the patriotic gall to disobey an order to fire on US.
My last point, and perhaps the most important that I think many have ignored is that the current Commander in Chief of the US military has also created the biggest, strongest, most powerful civilian police force the USA has ever seen.
And they have already shown their eagerness to oppress and even fire on US citizens.
American soldiers have repeatedly shown willingness to attack American citizens. Possibly it began with the Whiskey Rebellion, in which George Washington led an army of thousands of militiamen against civilian tax protestors. High points include the Civil War and the Bonus Marchers of 1933. In addition to Kent State, I would include Waco as well.
The average American soldier has an educational level below the civilian average. He is not a Constitutional scholar. Neither are you, because if you were, you would know there’s not a word in the US Constitution, written by rich slave owners, that prohibits soldiers from shooting civilians. It was done in Vietnam, it was done in Iraq, and someday it could be done here. The only difference will be the color of skin and that Vietnamese and Iraqis don’t have to pay $2300 to renounce their herd branding.
Yea, it galls my soft spot that the cost of getting the herd brand removed has gone up 400%. SUX
Being a veteran, USN, I found the spectacle of CINC orally ranting at this years West Point Graduation and receiving a 25%* standing ovation from ‘The Corps’ a crystallizing experience. Apparently 75% of the COMMISSIONED OFFICERS, West Point Class of 2014, do not display even a hint of fealty to CINC. Interestingly neither do I.
*25% standing ovation figure supplied by MSM. Were you there? Was it lower?
Very interesting piece, and discussion.
The weak spots in all of us, are in the plasticity of our perception and beliefs.
“Youngish” veterans returning from the fracas in the “sandbox” have already, many of them, been exposed to urban asymmetric warfare… and the stress and challenges that entails.
They loosely know, they are there to fight the enemies of the U.S. and western civilization, which have been widely referred to as “Terrorists”.
“Meanwhile… back at the ranch” of America, we have a widening and deepening redefinition used to describe us and our fellow Americans… those whose “beliefs” are incongruent with running a nation state by leveraging corporate and political power elite, and looting and pillaging the public trust and treasury.
When you turn Americans into “domestic terrorists” because they oppose totalitarian enemies of the Rule of Law, the Constitution… you don’t have to convince so many in Law Enforcement and the Military to fire on “Americans”… you only have to convince them to fire on sworn enemies of the state, “domestic terrorists”…
Whether we understand it or not… we underestimate the way the human brain, cognition, and skillful suggestion can “flash” reprogram human beliefs. Everyone reading this, has this happen to them.
Think it’s not true? I GUARANTEE, every single American on earth has beliefs they acquired this very way… beliefs that are inaccurate or just not so. Many of them are of no real consequence… SOME of them have potential GRAVE consequences.
The youngest of folks in our military and law enforcement our from a crop of American society, that has systematically been indoctrinated and subjected to manifold methods whose objective is to subjugate critical thinking skills.
Anyway… all of this is to say… this is nowhere near as cut and dry as both positions have posited.
I pray it all works out. Literally. Regularly.
Well said Daisy!
I too have many veterans in my family – including my husband, father, father-in-law, and brothers-in-law. They are all good and honorable men who have served in the military.
I can’t picture ANY of them firing on American citizens.
The group that I believe we should be concerned about firing on American citizens are the thousands of illegals that have recently crossed the border and then were transported to ??? We don’t know where they are or what they are doing, because DHS is keeping it a secret.
One article said that over 80% were teenage boys ages 16 and older. Many of these “children” were members of gangs in Central America. Some have admitted that they have committed many different crimes, including murder.
Exactly what jobs would they qualify for? Many grew up in poverty and can’t read or write.
Here is something to think about.
Obama told us what he wanted to do. Remember this?
In a speech in Colorado Springs, Obama said, “We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”
http://www.wnd.com/2011/07/323821/
Obama Civilian Security
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s
Ky Mom, please remember a very significant percentage of these illegals are allowed into the military regardless of offences they comitted in their home country. Once in the military an automatic road to citizenship is opened. Also the Department of Homeland Security considers them a threat to national security.Sleep well.
Daisy,
I note from time to time that Lew Rockwell posts your articles on his site, http://www.rockwell.com
Laurence Vance, a frequent contributor to LRC, would take issue with you on saying to US soldiers, past and present, “thank you for your service”. His reasons are compelling.
Have you read his work and blog posts on LRC?
RTT
Daisy,
I understand and respect your pride in your family. My family has a long history of military service, several hundred years worth including undercover intelligence work in enemy occupied territory.
Past generations of police officers would not have murdered people with the impunity we see today. I expect Dave is correct in his assessment. Having discussed this with psychologists in the family I can tell you than brain washing is very effective. This is only one of many tools that the military masters have to ensure compliance.
Lastly, anyone (my own family included) that is willing to go into another country and murder women and children does not deserve my respect and will easily do the same to their neighbors. There is no other entity in the world that can come close to posing a threat to any NATO country; anyone that believes otherwise is a fool. Murder is murder even if it is done in a uniform and even if it is sanctioned by the banks and their puppets.
Any members of the military that have not resigned or are not actively working toward routing out corruption are merely cowards. Just as good cops not arresting bad cops are actually the worst kind of cop; good soldiers not protecting us from corruption are the worst soldiers.
The cowards will not protect us from the sociopaths; they will follow orders to save their own skins.
Damn, I thought I was the only one with that attitude. Good job!
GGJ, very well put.
Outstanding post…thanks….I could not have said it better…
Much appreciation.
…and those that have the courage can exptraolate from there.
I hate to say it, being a 20 year veteran myself. But i would not bet that that the young military would hold their fire when ordered to open fire on American citizens. 30-40 years ago i would have said that home invasions would never happen, marijuana would never be legal in the U.S., exec… But look at what is going an around you, swat teams knocking down doors and killing people then finding out they are at the wrong address. The president of the United States involved in a sex scandal in the oval office. Police and now schools getting MRAPs helicopters, and weapons from the military. Need i continue? It is hard to fathom, but if you challenge them be sure to have on your bullet proof underwear! I put nothing past anyone these days.
Here is reality! There has never been one war in history, not one, where civilians didn’t lead the casualty count. Each and every time, rather ancient or modern, every war has taken more civilian lives than those lost on the battlefield. Are any of you so relentlessly naive as to believe anyone in uniform is concerned with your survial. “My people perish from lack of knowledge”. Ever heard those words? Open your eyes dumbasses! I make no apologizes for that remark, you deserve it.
An Open Letter to the Troops: You’re Not Defending Our Freedoms
http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/open-letter-troops-defending-freedoms/
Some will, some won’t. Each is an individual, with their own goals, motivations and beliefs. If you trust them all, you will probably regret it. If you trust none, you will miss out on some valuable knowledge and assistance.
If a threat exists to whatever it is that they are to protect They must consider that it may be a terrorist attack. If they feel they are in danger they will fire. In the history of most recent wars a white flag says talk or surrender. When the probability of a conflict the oldest with a white flag commands attention. A commander would loose control of his men if they called to fire on a single man with a flag of truce. The answer then is present no threat to the soldier. keep the groups small and peaceful with nothing carried. Give them no reason. It will a hard decision for anyone to make so its best not to need them to make it. It is best for the single man to convey the message. Tell them that as an old man it serves no purpose to kill or detain you. When standing in front of the men remind them that you are their brother, their father , their uncle, and grandfather. do they really want to kill you? put the doubt in their mind. We will always have a few that would kill their own mother if commanded. Our government has culled as many real heroes as possible It seems they have tried to have as many with a grudge as possible. Our president has removed as many brass that knows how to fight and would stand to oppose him if he declares martial law. Now with our forces cut and with the middle east rising it will be only a short time when we will send the remainder of our well trained forces. If American soil is attacked and all of our defenses are gone who will defend? No the president will not call on the citizen. He will call on the UN. Foreign soldiers will fire on Americans. food for thought.
Grampa
With no disrespect meant to your loved ones who died, or any of those who serve in the Armed Forces or Law Enforcement, your argument is based on the premise that the average German, or average Japanese’s soldier during WW2, the average North Korean or the average North Vietnamese in those conflicts, the average red coat during the Revolution and War of 1812 were in some way different than our own soldiers. We were just doing our duty has been a line that has justified atrocities throughout human history. Do you think the men who went off to war for their contries didn’t love their families, and risk everything for what they thought was a just cause?
The will to stand up in the face of immorality, even when everyone has accepted the immorality as normal, is rare, and needs to be taught and practiced like all virtues.
Thank you for having the clarity, and courage, to say this. Bosnia….Somalia….Iraq how many atrocities how many times? Depleted uranium weapons….the gifts that keep on giving. Agent orange, atomic weapons. Onto Afghanistan…. Libya…. Korea… interventions and support in Central America, S. America of ruthless dictators, weapons, training, direct involvement, now US contractors sniping all sides in Ukraine , guarding poppy fields and drug convoys, not to mention what happens here.
No more free passes for any of us. We all have responsibility in these events. the whole populace has been brainwashed. We killed 1.5M Iraqis all on lies – majority civilians. We bombed everything that the average Iraqi needed to survive – water treatment, food production, crop fields, hospitals, oil production, this all after years of stifling sanctions hurting the innocent people, women and children.
Yes, why do the brainwashed always think their families are more important than anyone else? Because they have lost their soul to brainwashing, they have become codeless, honorless, and willingly ignorant generation after generation not having the courage to face reality and their role in it.
If you think the soldiers will not fire on people and disobey unlawful orders then why you think they are killing thousands of innocent civilians and kids in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc
Do you think that a soldier that could kill innocent Afghani kid will not kill innocent American???
I must say I have my doubts
I come from a family of veteran’s as well with my son being the most recent.I can trace family involvment from the ACW to the present.
Even GS Patton JR described the Bonus Army Marcher’s as “communist’s”, thereby applying a title that implied enemy of the state.
Why was declaration of GWOT so broad and all encompassing? Anybody, who think’s anything other than “continuety of government” matter’s, is only fooling themselve’s.
“Lawful”? What does that even mean in a country that tortures the “enemy” and never even charges them with a crime? I suppose torture is now “lawful” since John Yoo wrote his opinion that it is.
What about the treatment of prisoners at Abhu Graib? I guess that was probably made lawful, too.
What about the use of white phosphorous and depleted uranium? I thought it was unlawful to use them on civilians?
Lawful seems to be whatever the chickenhawks and their minions of ass kissers want it to be. Just get congress to approve of it and pass a resolution here and there and “voila” it is now lawful to classify anyone you like as a terrorist and kill them.
You may be next and, yes, the soldiers will follow orders since the powers have declared it to be “lawful” to kill you…probably as a domestic terrorist or for resisting their orders under martial law.
“The Bonus Army was the popular name of an assemblage of some 43,000 marchers—17,000 World War I veterans, their families, and affiliated groups—who gathered in Washington, D.C., in the spring and summer of 1932 to demand cash-payment redemption of their service certificates.” (Wikipedia)
“Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, one of the most popular military figures of the time, visited their camp to back the effort and encourage them.[1] On July 28, U.S. Attorney General William D. Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two veterans were wounded and later died. Veterans were also shot dead at other locations during the demonstration. (Wikipedia)
I am more concerned about the out of control policia than the military, but uncomfortable that there is even a need to discuss the matter. It wasn’t an issue 20 years ago. That being said, a visiting relative of a church member is in the military police. During a discussion, he was absolutely adamant that no soldier would fire upon an American.
He is probably correct, but everyone has a price.
BTW, it was the relative that brought up the topic out of the blue. I didn’t realize until then, that it was a major issue.
ME, the person leading the assault on the veterans was four star general Douglas McAuthur and a Major Dwight David Eisenhower. And good for them, the veterans were no better than the civilians to suffer during the depression. Their bellies don’t get any more empty, their skin colder, than the civilians. I’m a veteran and any real veteran has better things to do than go protest something. The veterans these days should be nicknamed MOM [monoply on misery]. It is nothing new, George Washington demanded 44,000,000 in gold bullion to feed his veterans at the end of the Revolutionary War. When it wasn’t delivered then he marched on the congress and they fled in fear of their lives. Back to your statement, Think, how the hell did tens of thousands of veterans and their families drag ther pity pots from all over the country to DC in 1932 . Must to have been getting some money from somewhere. Bottom line, if a service member hasn’t lost limbs, eyes, or burned badly, of which I will gladly pay taxes to help support them, then give them some diapers a baby bottle and tell them to crawl up in the fetal position with their pathetic ptsd [feed the sorry dickh####], and DIE.
You certainly are passionate about your position, and I respect that. I wonder why General Semedley Butler supported them? I understood he was an honorable man. He also thought that war was a racket and wrote and promoted a booklet by that title. I was not around in 1932, and my parents were in single digits. All known wars, at least the ones we are familiar with, were banker wars. That is a sad commentary on relatively recent history. WW1 was a terrible war, but then again, all wars are. There are no winners in wars, only losers for those who were the boots on the ground. The winners are the ones that made a profit on it by funding both sides. Yes, even Prescott Bush, and his son and grandson became president! If they fund both sides, they would have no problem funding the Bonus Army, either. They probably were funded. If the complaining vets had given the situation more thought, they should have prioritized their family’s well being instead of trying to get what they thought they deserved. Alas, that is not how people think. Today it is more obvious. Most people wear the T shirt: “It’s All About Me!” The government has had a long history of abusing veterans one way or another.
wow. I am surprised at the naivete expressed in many of these comments. I am a veteran, as were most of my ancestors as far back as anybody could remember. I am not a hawk. I am a dove, and proud of it. Was not always the case. I was raised on John Wayne, et al, WWII “enlist” movies…I was set to go to the Nam and fight for my country. Trained to “kill a commie for Christ”….yep. I will promise you, that at that time, had some piece of brass ordered me to fire into a crowd of “those pinko hippies” I would have done so. No doubt about it. And that is what scares me. I certainly now know better. I do feel, however, there are many in our military that do NOT know better. Many examples have been sited in these comments that glaringly point out the military had already fired on Americans. I can only say that anybody that believes they won’t again, is in denial. Two things I didn’t note in any of the other comments I’d like to mention. One, Katrina. The National Guard…the one kid in uniform we saw on the tube that said to the effect of “I never thought I’d be going door to door taking guns in America”. Trouble is he went ahead, followed those illegal orders, and did the bidding of the brass. Second, best I can tell, our military is now about 1/3 foreign citizenry. Folks from Germany, Uganda, Mexico, etc…non US citizens…but still in our military, wearing the same uniform, and carrying the same weaponry. Do all you guys actually believe for one blasted second those non-citizen American soldiers won’t be more than happy to fire on American citizens? And the “shootings” will NOT be the worst of it for many of us. Now let me ask a more important question, and it is not necessary to give your answer to anybody but yourselves: Are you prepared to fire on the US Military if indeed you are wrong in your belief that the US Military won’t fire on you, an American citizen? Yes, I know, I’m just crazy for asking, because it will never happen. Ok.
Finally, some common sense spoken! Thank you, for your service, and your honesty! Also, when the US calls in the foreign UN, they will NOT hesitate to kill us…
thank you!
Much appreciation for your candid comments. I, like you, was gungho post college. Thought I knew something about the good guys and bad guys, govt, money systems, etc.. Even armed with certain knowledge I still fell prey to the war drums and could have fallen prey to rounding up “domestic” terrorists.
You know what I have seen over and over? Those that just became aware of a few things start talking about their govt, the banks, fraudulent markets etc. like they are some inanimate thing. Nope, they are made of people, our neighbors, relatives, fellow Americans, etc.. Americans orchestrate this mindless nonsense against each other by being dumbed down and ignorant to certain realities. People act like they have known about issues with “these institutions” their whole life which might be 50 or 60 years. The fascinating part is they forget conveniently they just awoke in some part from being brainwashed just because of bank bailouts. Now that same group cannot fathom what you speak of….it may take till the next grand event for them to realize quite a bit more.
Most are still brainwashed by those that did it to them the first time. They dont even realize the game has evolved to meet their so-called awakening. They talk about banksters taking over the country and the military industrial complex like its some kind of far away game, not remotely coming to grips to the depth of what it really means, not least of which they have had a farce of a “sovereign” country run by oligarchs for 2 centuries. One’s country is run by internationalists and they never knew until a couple years ago….and still it doesnt sink in what that means. They are manipulated at whim. It means each and everything one has been told, will be told, is a lie or simply used to manipulate, much of it coming from dupes in the alternative media. Their history, their reason for rah rah all the way to Iraq and back what now, 3 times, was an ever expanding lie as part of taking over their own country….but they think they have some idea of reality?
But, nope, the dupes wont fire on US Citizens….something they have already done many times. Again, more american deaths by cops than American soldier combat deaths in Iraq over the same period.
None are so enslaved as those that falsely believe they are free….
I hope you’re correct! Although I think some military will not fire upon American Subjects, i mean, citizens, I think/feel that many will. Why? I think it’s more than they’re following orders. I think for many, and NO insult to all our fighting heroes!!, it’s a power trip – just like LEOs shooting first, killing innocent, unarmed people, etc. They’re cowboys on a mission. I feel with their mindset, they can, and will, be easily convinced that “we” are the bad guys – terrorists.
Geez, with all the current acts of this sort and that, most of the US people are already considered terrorists – all Patriots sure will!
I just pray they understand their Patriotic Oath to fight tyranny – both foreign AND domestic. I feel the domestic is way worse than anything foreign can ever bring…
I too have military connections, family and and ex-spouse, this does nothing to dissuade my firm blief that “American Troops” *will* fire on american (American=government, american= We the people) citizens due to the fact the U.S. Government has contracted quite a bit of military duties to groups like Academi* (formerly known as Blackwater and Xe,)DynCorp, KBR and other. Our government awards them (often with contracts where there has been no competition.) These groups hire and train non-americans, often mercenaries from Central America, Africa, and more.
These units have been dropped in the U.S. during times of stress (Hurricane Katrina) where there have been undocumented accounts of them firing on americans. Their contracts, with the U.S. government) also keep them from being held accountable for any atrocities they may perform while under contract.
Why is the U.S. government “downsizing” the U.S. Military? Because they are building (IMO) a private army to control the U.S. civilian population; a private military which will not hesitate to fire on american citizens.
(Wikipedia)
*In December, 2006, in Iraq there were estimated to be at least 100,000 contractors working directly for the United States Department of Defense which was a tenfold increase in the use of private contractors for military operations since the Persian Gulf War, just over a decade earlier.[19] The prevalence of PMCs led to the foundation of trade group the Private Security Company Association of Iraq. In Iraq, the issue of accountability, especially in the case of contractors carrying weapons, was a sensitive one. Iraqi laws do not hold over contractors.
(Merle, Renae (2006-12-05). “Census Counts 100,000 Contractors in Iraq”. Washington Post.)
This is strictly my opinion based on my own research, including bills/laws written and passed by our government.
Kudos. Anyone with some courage can see certain realities.
The same ones who are just figuring out Iraq 1, 2, and now 3 and any number of other fictitious wars still just dont get but a cursory level.
Amazing how the military and police keep getting a free pass no matter how many drones they use on innocents, no matter how many on US citizens without even a trial, no matter how many ugly Katrina type events they participate.
Brainwashing runs deep. We are all at risk in this regard, and frankly until a person realizes he has been brainwashed he is never going to be free and is at best a menace to himself and others.
More Americans have been killed by police in this country than American soldiers killed in Iraq over the same time period. Let that one sink in before one’s naivete gets the better of them. Who used the drones to kill American citizens overseas without any due process, only by executive order of the latest puppet?
Who shot 13 students at Kent State? Unarmed.
Who went door to door in New Orleans as an opportunistic trial of disarming and threatening innocent people just trying to protect themselves? and couldnt even provide basic clean water or medical care to keep people from dying?
Numerous places in the world the police, military, and brownshirt gangs run by the same do exactly what you say they wont. And they do it here too, in Amerika.
The soldiers willingly killed numerous unarmed Indians, numerous women and children. These willing dupes that fight for the international bankers are somehow immune to what previous generations have done jsut because ordered to do so? As soon as the dupes that guard the drug trade for the same banking cartels are told there is a domestic threat they go at it with typical idiotic, robot like efficiency. Humans are quite programmable, and history shows this in spades.
Who is it that went door to door in Boston in a show of power and fear mongering bludgeoning those that wouldnt submit to having their doors broken down for no reason?
Who is it that shows up to scare people from peacefully protesting, to film them, to infiltrate them, to create violence?
Who is it that puts down any Occupy protests and disposes of mega wealth industry whistleblowers? Who is it that are willing dupes to rout peaceful movements while the paid provocateurs run amok destroying businesses and harming people? Who is it marching down the streets of Ferguson in full riot gear shooting people with rubber bullets and tear gas and doing the same to jouralists? Who is it that is doing maneuvers in US cities at night unnannounced? Who is it that sets up MLK, JFK, and willingly supports the orders from an elite that do not like a threat to the military industrial complex and these pesky anti-war protests? Who helped round up Americans during WWII and place them in internment camps in massive numbers? Who are the willing hands of the banking cartels running their wars for them killing 1.5M Iraqis (majority civilians) and running cover for their flesh and drug trade round the world, and cover for their orchestrated financial takedowns of countries and people? Where do you see soldiers or police in Amerika laying down their guns to support Americans unalienable rights? The dupes will fire on their own, squeal on their own, bludgeon their own when told to do so. Such is the state of the zombied dupes.
Who fought the civil war killing Americans for years and burning American cities killing numerous civilians? Who supported the confiscation of wealth in the south during the same period?
This happens all over the world, every day of every year. This is the epicenter of violence and killing of millions of innocents around the world. This is the epicenter of joystick drone killings of civilians by the military.
The Germans were the most educated, most scientifically and engineering capable people on the planet, and in many ways willingly embraced their dictator. The more persons have to lose the more they prop up and rationalize things their masters do.
Anyone that doesnt think this will happen here is worse than an irresponsible fool. Its already happened any number of times and is happening
Daisy, my husband of 33 years is a 100% (service connected) disabled veteran. His message to you after reading your rebuttal was a heartfelt and resounding, THANK YOU! Mr. Hodges has had good information many times, however, this time I believe he completely missed the mark.
For my own part, my husband served; my father; lots of other relatives and various friends through the years. I am just old enough to remember the Evening News with Walter Cronkite, seeing the images of protesters spitting on veterans returning from Vietnam (I was about 12 or so) and I definitely remember my father’s rants while we watched. What Mr. Hodges wrote in his article was eerily reminiscent of the attitudes that 1970’s people exhibited to returning Vietnam Veterans.
One thing I’m sure of is that my husband is not only the most ethical person I’ve ever met (he is not a perfect husband, father or man, but I can guarantee he is the most ETHICAL. He’s the only person I’ve ever known who drove more than 10 miles to return 2 cents he was over paid from a bank!) but he also remembers the oath he took and that he was NEVER RELEASED from that oath. I think that says something right there.
You said it all in a nutshell and thank you again, from the both of us.
I don’t know. I am very torn on this. As a retired vet myself, I want to believe the military is better than this. I want to believe that there is honor and pride in being an American serving under that flag. I want to believe they would have the courage and conviction to stand up to obviously illegal orders and say “No”.
But, “wanna believe” comes from the heart, not from the head.
Then there is “I saw”. I saw things happening that were in conflict with my idealistic hopes. I saw the military becoming one big social experiment. The unfit were promoted, not on merit but on melanin content or gender. The abuses of power by upper echelons were becoming frequent. Sexual assault reports and cronyism. I see the articles suggesting the upper echelons were being “reorganized” based on how they answered the question, “would you fire on American citizens?” I see the memos from DHS flat out stating that vets and conservatives are domestic terrorist suspects. I saw the article about a guy pulled over by a state trooper because he had a Ron Paul sticker on his truck. I see the cops getting all geared up like Schwarzenegger in “Commando” and the effect it has on their mentality. I saw the cops kicking down doors after Katrina taking guns from little old ladies, after a 200+ lb hulk slammed her against the wall just for good measure. I saw the NATIONAL GUARD STANDING BY OUTSIDE, ASSISTING, AND WHEN ASKED IF THEY THOUGHT THIS WAS WRONG, THEY REPLIED “WE’RE JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS”.
What I see is reality. What I wish for is fantasy.
Perhaps uncertainty about whether US soldiers would fire on civilians helps explain why Obama is in such a hurry to get illegal aliens to enlist in our armed forces.
I think it more plausible that the pilot of air force one would bury the nose .
Daisy writes:
“I am the daughter of a veteran, a patriot who was honored with a military 21 gun salute at his funeral. I’m also the grandaughter of 2 veterans, the niece of 6 veterans, and the cousin of still more veterans. For 3 generations, members of my family have served. They’ve fought in both World Wars, Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf, and Afghanistan.”
What does this mean?
Daisy should try to get deprogrammed from multi-generational mind control visited upon her by her family’s participation in Uncle Satan’s army.
Daisy — puhleeze — the US Military is the global enforcement arm of the NWO.
“Thank you for your service”?
Today’s military “serves” the .01% simply through their willful ignorance and refusal to see they are the willing executioners of innocent people throughout the world…